Rx Diet

Question:

Try searching the web for glycemic index, or try a boot store. Barnes and Noble carries a book with a list.

Thanx. Betty.

Response:

http://www.mendosa.com/gi.htm.

Thank you. Betty.

Response:

No pineapple

Totally out of curiosity?  How come no pineapple? —               John F Davis in Delightful Detroit     Remove the obvious "no.spam." if replying via E-mail    Diabetic?  Visit http://go.compuserve.com/diabetesforum     No membership needed to read, AOL-IM members can post

Response:

No pineapple Totally out of curiosity?  How come no pineapple?

I’m not the one who said it, but probably becuase it’s high in simple sugars.  Might be OK for some, you never can tell without checking on yourself. Speaking only for myself, Joe Durusau

Response:

Totally out of curiosity?  How come no pineapple?

I was told it had a high GI. Betty.

Response:

John as Tess said the glycemic index of pineapple and watermelon is one of the highest around. For diabetics such fruit is spike material just like sugar saturated cordial. Note the white bread index is 100 , good ol watermelon is higher!!!. It is widely proven that High GI foods create swings in BSI because of the glucose levels. The low Gi food groups  produce gradual rises in BSI and have many health benefits accordingly. This includes decreasing  the amount of insulin "dumped" which increases insulin sensitivity at the cellular level. Which simply means insulin becomes more effective in your body. Just like gently increasing the throttle in a car instead of jerking it. For fat loss one of the main problems with T2’s the hardest part of dieting is the hunger. Low GI foods are natural appetite suppressants. (which is one reason why the Atkins folk stick better to his diet than low fat. because they don’t get hungry!~) If you can help control insulin by eating low GI food it ensures fat is burned and you have some drive left at the end of the day (another problem with low fat diets – you feel stuffed by the end of the day or an hour after breakfast!) Benefits of Low A glycemic Foods: 1. do not stimulate fat storage, 2. reduce appetite, 3. enhance sports performance, 4. improve energy levels while reducing sugar-related energy and/or mood swings, 5. improve muscle to fat ratio, 6. enhance mental alertness, 7. allow you to eat more calories, and, 8. may help lower blood lipids. 9. Low-glycemic foods  have been proven to reduce the incidence of Type II diabetes and to help control Type I and II diabetes, hypoglycemia and hypertension. (UNSW) This is t he fruit you should eat in preference from low to high! So Tess is on Target!!!! Note all the super sweet fruit is not so good for you!!! Also never drink juice especially if its concentrated. Recently someone posted a non sugar apple pie recipe here. It had 2 cups of concentrated apple juice. unfortunately it was not mentioned that it had 2lbs of sugar per pint of juice!!!!! Cherries  32   Grapefruit  36   Apple 38   Apple juice, unsweetened 40   Apricots, dried 44   Pear, fresh 53   Apple 54   Plum 55   Apple juice 58   Peach, fresh 60   Orange  53   Pear, canned 63   Grapes  66   Pineapple juice 66   Peach, canned 67   Grapefruit juice 69   Orange juice 74   Kiwi 75   Banana 77   Fruit cocktail 79   Mango 80   Apricots, fresh 82   Raisins 91   Apricots, canned syrup 91   Pineapple 94   Rockmelon (muskmelon, canteloupe) 93   Watermelon 103 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No pineapple Totally out of curiosity?  How come no pineapple? —               John F Davis in Delightful Detroit     Remove the obvious "no.spam." if replying via E-mail    Diabetic?  Visit http://go.compuserve.com/diabetesforum     No membership needed to read, AOL-IM members can post

Response:

says… I’m not the one who said it, but probably becuase it’s high in simple sugars.  Might be OK for some, you never can tell without checking on yourself.

Ok, thanks,  Kind of wondered about it is all —               John F Davis in Delightful Detroit     Remove the obvious "no.spam." if replying via E-mail    Diabetic?  Visit http://go.compuserve.com/diabetesforum     No membership needed to read, AOL-IM members can post

Response:

Should I just shut the hell up and be happy with my good fortune?

version of the Serenity prayer here: Accept the things you cannot change, Have the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference. BL

Response:

… Are the long term effects of consuming as many medications as I do likely to form a problem of their own (such as kidney and liver damage and who knows what else)? I worry about this in light of the fact that I have 40 years to go before I can reach a normal life span, yet my drug diet is already comparable to your average senior citizen.

I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone else does either. However, it does seem like a pretty severe regimen. Tell me, what does your exercise plan look like? Should I just shut the hell up and be happy with my good fortune?

Yes and no. Yes, you’re lucky that your doctor is on the ball and is treating your condition aggressively. This is the best way to avoid complications. No, you shouldn’t simply take a raft of medications without looking into the alternatives. By this I don’t mean "alternative medicines." Diet and exercise can bring about dramatic improvements in diabetic control, blood pressure and cholestorol. However, if you are already exercising and your diet is good, then instead of worrying about the consequences of taking all those meds, you should have a think about the consequences of NOT taking them. Even before I was diagnosed, I knew of two people who chose to ignore their diabetes. Both required lower limb amputations and died of heart attacks in their 50s. Cheers, John Carney.

Response:

Excuse me if im wrong, your drugs indicate you may be severely overweight? Yet in your post you do not mention diet and exercise? T2 diabetes is a triangle. Diet , Exercise and Medication. If you don’t change your diet to limit carbs and you don’t exercise you need more and more medication. What should be happening is  that you should be walking an hour a day and replacing high GI food with low GI food. Medication is the last resort except for most people it is the first choice! On top of your diabetes you have other conditions that need exercise! One hour walking each day !!!! If you cant walk because of your legs you need to swim until you can walk or do both. You should remove flour and sugar and root veges from your diet replacing them with other vegetables and changing fruit types. eg pineapple and bananas get changed to cherries and peaches. Buy a book on food GI and eat low GI food. I am sorry this is harsh, its exactly what I told myself looking in the mirror after many years of relying on medication and dieticians. Diabetes is a personal disease – only you can manage it. Ask yourself which came first? the hypertension hyperlipidemia or the diabetes?  All your illnesses are continuing alarm bells that your body need better food and exercise…… Your last question – no don’t shut up ever ….. ask ask ask – Do not rely on any one source of information, Retake control of your body!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Background – I’m a 28 year old with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and ’statistically borderline’ diabetes. I say this not to downplay the seriousness (or permanency) of the condition, but to distinguish the fact that my bg numbers (at their apex prior to treatment) were on the edge between IGT and diabetes and never way out of control. In fact, my peak hba1c was 5.1%, which would indicate the problem was caught in its infancy and that I didn’t endure much in the way of sustained spikes. When my high blood pressure and high cholesterol were diagnosed, my bg numbers were normal. A year into the successful treatment of the blood pressure and cholesterol and . . . wham! blood glucose numbers started saying goodbye to normal, and my doctor intervened further. My current drug regimen looks like this – 2000 mg Metformin daily (blood sugar) 20 mg Lisinopril daily (blood pressure) 5 mg Bisoprolol daily (blood pressure) 20 mg Lovastatin daily (cholesterol) 20 mg Fluoxetine daily (depression) 81 mg aspirin (cardiovascular risk factors) I feel very fortunate that my condition was discovered within 12 months of its detectability in a blood test, and that this list of drugs presently allows me to manage the conditions. I am aware that the utilization of multiple drugs (in treatment of the typical diabetic and his horde of conditions) is commonplace. Let’s arrive at my question – pretend that the rest of my life is nearly perfect. No additional conditions come up. No cancer. No MS. No Parkinson’s. Nothing. Furthermore, my current diabetes/blood pressure/cholesterol treatment plan always works perfectly and never requires modification (keep in mind I do not actually consider this a possibility). Are the long term effects of consuming as many medications as I do likely to form a problem of their own (such as kidney and liver damage and who knows what else)? I worry about this in light of the fact that I have 40 years to go before I can reach a normal life span, yet my drug diet is already comparable to your average senior citizen. Should I just shut the hell up and be happy with my good fortune?

Response:

What should be happening is  that you should be walking an hour a day and replacing high GI food with low GI food.

The food I am doing. No white flour, rice or potatoes. No pineapple. Using TOPS 1220 cal. food program. Weigh in is Thursday. There is no way I can walk an hour a day at one time. Maybe broken up into segments. Along with the new diagnosis of diabetes, I have fibromyalgia. I have a TotalGym. Would that be the right type of exercise? Betty.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – www.mendosa.com What should be happening is  that you should be walking an hour a day and replacing high GI food with low GI food. Where can I find a list or book about GI of foods? This is all totally new to me as of last week. Doc said he is not going to treat at this time. I am to get the weight off and exercise. One test he did was 6.6. Said anything below 7 was acceptable. Any help appreciated. Betty.

Try searching the web for glycemic index, or try a boot store. Barnes and Noble carries a book with a list. Speaking only for myself, Joe Durusau

Response:

http://www.mendosa.com/gi.htm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Where can I find a list or book about GI of foods? This is all totally new to me as of last week. Doc said he is not going to treat at this time. I am to get the weight off and exercise. One test he did was 6.6. Said anything below 7 was acceptable. Any help appreciated. Betty.

Response:

What should be happening is  that you should be walking an hour a day and replacing high GI food with low GI food.

Where can I find a list or book about GI of foods? This is all totally new to me as of last week. Doc said he is not going to treat at this time. I am to get the weight off and exercise. One test he did was 6.6. Said anything below 7 was acceptable. Any help appreciated. Betty.

Response:

www.mendosa.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What should be happening is  that you should be walking an hour a day and replacing high GI food with low GI food. Where can I find a list or book about GI of foods? This is all totally new to me as of last week. Doc said he is not going to treat at this time. I am to get the weight off and exercise. One test he did was 6.6. Said anything below 7 was acceptable. Any help appreciated. Betty.

Response:

Actually, I am not overweight (nor was I). In fact, I have dropped nearly 20 pounds in the past 5 months (passively) and that puts me at 5′10" and 160 pounds today. At my heaviest, I was 180 pounds. Though I didn’t mention the exercise and diet components of my current treatment plan, rest assured they are indeed in place. My exercise includes walking for 30 minutes daily. As far as diet goes – it’s an evolutionary thing. I started by simply eating less (with no regard to what I was eating, just consuming less of everything). Moving on, I then put an end to my ‘feast or famine’ policy of eating, which I am certain is bad for diabetic type conditions no matter WHAT it is that you are eating (let alone the garbage that has made up my diet for 28 years). I started eating smaller meals in regular cycles. Eventually, I started tinkering with the actual choices in my diet. I eliminated Coke and Mountain Dew entirely in favor of water. I look at this as a significant development (39g of sugar per can of soda X 6 = a lot of sugar). Recently, I have nearly eliminated bread from the picture. This evolution will go on like this until I find a decent balance between nutrition and tastiness. I’m on top of my condition so early in the game thay I expect to have the luxury of eating a ‘traditional’ healthy diet (everything in moderation) as opposed to going nuts and eating like the full-on diabetic (counting carbs and the like). Just a theory, though. I won’t be entirely crestfallen if this turns out to be fallacy. For those that like the shortened version – at no point did I, do I or will I ever believe that my laundry list of medications (no matter how effective they are now and no matter how early my condition was detected and managed) is a substitute for the diet and exercise part of the diabetic’s ‘triangle’ of successful treatment.

Response:

My question to you would be… Other than the meds, what else are you doing to ensure yourself a good long healthy life? Exercise? Food? Meds are just one leg of the health tripod. Instead of worrying, take a hike ; ) Literally. If you do ALL you can, then that’s all you can do. Jennifer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Background – I’m a 28 year old with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and ’statistically borderline’ diabetes. I say this not to downplay the seriousness (or permanency) of the condition, but to distinguish the fact that my bg numbers (at their apex prior to treatment) were on the edge between IGT and diabetes and never way out of control. In fact, my peak hba1c was 5.1%, which would indicate the problem was caught in its infancy and that I didn’t endure much in the way of sustained spikes. When my high blood pressure and high cholesterol were diagnosed, my bg numbers were normal. A year into the successful treatment of the blood pressure and cholesterol and . . . wham! blood glucose numbers started saying goodbye to normal, and my doctor intervened further. My current drug regimen looks like this – 2000 mg Metformin daily (blood sugar) 20 mg Lisinopril daily (blood pressure) 5 mg Bisoprolol daily (blood pressure) 20 mg Lovastatin daily (cholesterol) 20 mg Fluoxetine daily (depression) 81 mg aspirin (cardiovascular risk factors) I feel very fortunate that my condition was discovered within 12 months of its detectability in a blood test, and that this list of drugs presently allows me to manage the conditions. I am aware that the utilization of multiple drugs (in treatment of the typical diabetic and his horde of conditions) is commonplace. Let’s arrive at my question – pretend that the rest of my life is nearly perfect. No additional conditions come up. No cancer. No MS. No Parkinson’s. Nothing. Furthermore, my current diabetes/blood pressure/cholesterol treatment plan always works perfectly and never requires modification (keep in mind I do not actually consider this a possibility). Are the long term effects of consuming as many medications as I do likely to form a problem of their own (such as kidney and liver damage and who knows what else)? I worry about this in light of the fact that I have 40 years to go before I can reach a normal life span, yet my drug diet is already comparable to your average senior citizen. Should I just shut the hell up and be happy with my good fortune?

Response:

Background – I’m a 28 year old with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and ’statistically borderline’ diabetes. I say this not to downplay the seriousness (or permanency) of the condition, but to distinguish the fact that my bg numbers (at their apex prior to treatment) were on the edge between IGT and diabetes and never way out of control. In fact, my peak hba1c was 5.1%, which would indicate the problem was caught in its infancy and that I didn’t endure much in the way of sustained spikes. When my high blood pressure and high cholesterol were diagnosed, my bg numbers were normal. A year into the successful treatment of the blood pressure and cholesterol and . . . wham! blood glucose numbers started saying goodbye to normal, and my doctor intervened further. My current drug regimen looks like this – 2000 mg Metformin daily (blood sugar) 20 mg Lisinopril daily (blood pressure) 5 mg Bisoprolol daily (blood pressure) 20 mg Lovastatin daily (cholesterol) 20 mg Fluoxetine daily (depression) 81 mg aspirin (cardiovascular risk factors) I feel very fortunate that my condition was discovered within 12 months of its detectability in a blood test, and that this list of drugs presently allows me to manage the conditions. I am aware that the utilization of multiple drugs (in treatment of the typical diabetic and his horde of conditions) is commonplace. Let’s arrive at my question – pretend that the rest of my life is nearly perfect. No additional conditions come up. No cancer. No MS. No Parkinson’s. Nothing. Furthermore, my current diabetes/blood pressure/cholesterol treatment plan always works perfectly and never requires modification (keep in mind I do not actually consider this a possibility). Are the long term effects of consuming as many medications as I do likely to form a problem of their own (such as kidney and liver damage and who knows what else)? I worry about this in light of the fact that I have 40 years to go before I can reach a normal life span, yet my drug diet is already comparable to your average senior citizen. Should I just shut the hell up and be happy with my good fortune?

Response:

Question:

Good to hear that it is working. My case has been very similar in respect to drug/diet/lifestyle changes…I too started improving as soon as I got started the MTX regimen, but I definetly believe that all the efforts complementary to the treatment have doubled the effectivness. MC

Response:

Hello all again.  Well, it’s been quite a while since my last post, so I figured it’s time to update y’all with how my progress has been. As you may (or may not) remember, I’m taking Soriatane 25mg/day to help my P.  I was taking Fish oil along with that, but I quit because I got tired of burping nasty fishy taste for several hours afterwards. So far, my P has seen quite a bit of improvement with Soriatane.  On the "hoover scale" (see earlier humorous post), I’m went from 4 to 2. Very encouraging so far.  The redness on my forehead is a lot less and the flaking isn’t as bad.  The spots on my arms, legs and back are being more stubborn, but they are showing signs of slow improvement. During this, I have taken up golf, so I’m spending more time out in the sun, being careful about burning since the Soriatane does make me more sensitive to the sunlight.  I’ve also joined a gym and have changed my diet dramatically.  Now, before you go saying that the sun, diet, and working out have done all the work and not the drug, let me point out that the improvements have all taken place before the other stuff started.  I do think that the sun and the rest have helped somewhat, but that’s supplemental to the drug.  The majority of the improvements have been while on the drug alone. I have an appointment with my derm next wednesday, so we’ll see if my blood levels are good so far (they were last month) and she’ll determine wheter or not she wants to increase my dosage.  I still have to go in for my blood test, but that’ll keep until monday. Timothy R. Winters Designing Knights http://www.designingknights.com A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.      –Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

   Carole:    <"For instance how many people know that calcium gets rid of headlice and    athletes foot?  How many people know that sodium phosphate and sulphate get    rid of knotted back and neck muscles?" Most people know it doesn’t work to cure any of the problems you’ve mentioned..

Most people have never heard of cell or tissue salts.   Your argument falls.      <"…..and I don’t see why there is so much conventional science thinking in    this newsgroup when its supposed to be alternative health." I don’t see why you present so much irrational thinking & "one cure fits all" nonsense in this newsgroup when it’s supposed to be alternative health. You’re not running into just "scientific" thinking in this NG, Carole — you’re running into people on *both* sides of the health care fence who *think*.  That’s why your cell salts stuff is dismissed as the malarkey it is.

There do not seem to be any controlled studies on tissue salts to either prove or disprove the issue.   Be careful you don’t overreact to Carole’s posting style. Tissue salts remain unproven. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

How’s your now even more non degree fairing in the wake of the latest scandal involving Greenwich U?  What purchased doctorate does the "Dr." before your name refer to now? arf I think the message is more important than details of the name.

Correct.  But health care professionals shouldn’t lie about their credentials.  Not Dr. S. is lying.  He does not have a legitimate PhD. The point is there are many more nutritional cures than you or your precious scientific medical people want to admit or want to know about.

Why wouldn’t I want to admit or know about them? Go and kill yourself with your drugs and give alternative medicine a

break. Carole, up until now your ravings have been only mildly annoying.  Any idiot can see that your claim that almost every disease can be cured using cell salts is crazy.  But telling people to kill themselves is a bit strong. Especially when they haven’t insulted you.  So go fuck yourself. hd

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How’s your now even more non degree fairing in the wake of the latest scandal involving Greenwich U?  What purchased doctorate does the "Dr." before your name refer to now? arf I think the message is more important than details of the name. Correct.  But health care professionals shouldn’t lie about their credentials.  Not Dr. S. is lying.  He does not have a legitimate PhD. The point is there are many more nutritional cures than you or your precious scientific medical people want to admit or want to know about. Why wouldn’t I want to admit or know about them? Go and kill yourself with your drugs and give alternative medicine a break. Carole, up until now your ravings have been only mildly annoying.  Any idiot can see that your claim that almost every disease can be cured using cell salts is crazy.  But telling people to kill themselves is a bit strong. Especially when they haven’t insulted you.  So go fuck yourself. hd

Happy, from the time I came into this newsgroup I have found you to have one antagonistic attitude.  It beats me why people who aren’t interested in alternative medicine hang around here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Carole, up until now your ravings have been only mildly annoying.  Any idiot can see that your claim that almost every disease can be cured using cell salts is crazy.  But telling people to kill themselves is a bit strong. Especially when they haven’t insulted you.  So go fuck yourself. Happy, from the time I came into this newsgroup I have found you to have one antagonistic attitude.

I find the term "self referential" to be way overused here.  But what else can I call the above when the last post you made to me told me to kill myself?  That’s not antagonistic? It beats me why people who aren’t interested in alternative medicine hang around here.

This NG isn’t restricted to lunatics.  Your idea of AM is cell salts. You’re a parody of the worst that AM has to offer.  It’s clear that you can’t consider the possibility that cell salts have been considered and dismissed for lack of theory and evidence. erf

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carole, up until now your ravings have been only mildly annoying.  Any idiot can see that your claim that almost every disease can be cured using cell salts is crazy.  But telling people to kill themselves is a bit strong. Especially when they haven’t insulted you.  So go fuck yourself. Happy, from the time I came into this newsgroup I have found you to have one antagonistic attitude. I find the term "self referential" to be way overused here.  But what else can I call the above when the last post you made to me told me to kill myself?  That’s not antagonistic?

I really meant to go take your drugs (which would then kill you) and I didn’t mean to say for you to kill yourself.  What do you take me for?  I don’t mind people arguing with me ….   I just meant that you won’t get really healthy taking drugs and that they eventually lead to chronic disease through suppression of the body’s natural eliminative processes. It beats me why people who aren’t interested in alternative medicine hang around here. This NG isn’t restricted to lunatics.  Your idea of AM is cell salts. You’re a parody of the worst that AM has to offer.  It’s clear that you can’t consider the possibility that cell salts have been considered and dismissed for lack of theory and evidence. erf

I don’t think people have looked into cell salts enough.  For instance how many people know that calcium gets rid of headlice and athletes foot? How many people know that sodium phosphate and sulphate get rid of knotted back and neck muscles? People have looked at cell salts superficially and then dismissed them. I think cell salts are an example of the BEST to be found in this newsgroup and I don’t see why there is so much conventional science thinking in this newsgroup when its supposed to be alternative health.

Response:

The astonishing ignorance of Carole continues unabated. Carole, pop over to my local hospital, you can do the rounds and go and tell all of my patients that their maladies can be so easily cured by the simple administration of cell salts. Phone up a few of the relatives of people that died from conditions so horrendous that you wouldn`t want to imagine – tell these relatives that the person died an "unnecessary death" – a death that could have been averted by the simple administration of "cell salts". Pop along to the coroners office.  Pull out the records of those ever growing numbers of people who have tragically found this life so hard that they have ended it.  Phone their parents, husbands and wives – phone them and tell them why they have a dead relative – your views recently expressed about anxiety and stress were beyond offensive.  Maybe you should bite the bullet and start taking direct action – direct your views into the very places it really matters.  Maybe then you will begin to learn something. Pop along to the war torn and famine torn parts of the world.  Go look those parasite infected, starving, dying people.  Sell them your cell salt theory. Look them in their eyes – ask them if they are concerned about athletes foot.  Hypothesis as to why they have the symptoms they have, tell them your theories. Carole.  Your naivety and stupidity is truely astonishing.  I very much doubt that you are a bad person or that you have any bad intentions for anyone, but your postings do nothing to help to change medical practice or to educate people. Carole, if you want to educate people, i would suggest you begin by educating yourself and reading things beyond your cell salt bible.  Maybe, just maybe, cell salt theory is a sound theory.  However, the way you tout it will virtually guarentee that it will be long ignored. Regards, Andrew "having a little rant" Austin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carole, up until now your ravings have been only mildly annoying. Any idiot can see that your claim that almost every disease can be cured using cell salts is crazy.  But telling people to kill themselves is a bit strong. Especially when they haven’t insulted you.  So go fuck yourself. Happy, from the time I came into this newsgroup I have found you to have one antagonistic attitude. I find the term "self referential" to be way overused here.  But what else can I call the above when the last post you made to me told me to kill myself?  That’s not antagonistic? I really meant to go take your drugs (which would then kill you) and I didn’t mean to say for you to kill yourself.  What do you take me for?  I don’t mind people arguing with me ….   I just meant that you won’t get really healthy taking drugs and that they eventually lead to chronic disease through suppression of the body’s natural eliminative processes. It beats me why people who aren’t interested in alternative medicine hang around here. This NG isn’t restricted to lunatics.  Your idea of AM is cell salts. You’re a parody of the worst that AM has to offer.  It’s clear that you can’t consider the possibility that cell salts have been considered and dismissed for lack of theory and evidence. erf I don’t think people have looked into cell salts enough.  For instance how many people know that calcium gets rid of headlice and athletes foot? How many people know that sodium phosphate and sulphate get rid of knotted back and neck muscles? People have looked at cell salts superficially and then dismissed them. I think cell salts are an example of the BEST to be found in this newsgroup and I don’t see why there is so much conventional science thinking in this newsgroup when its supposed to be alternative health.

Response:

I find the term "self referential" to be way overused here.  But what else can I call the above when the last post you made to me told me to kill myself?  That’s not antagonistic? I really meant to go take your drugs (which would then kill you) and I didn’t mean to say for you to kill yourself.  What do you take me for?

Until this, I took you for a closed minded, scientifically illiterate and misguided individual.  Now it’s all those plus antagonistic. This NG isn’t restricted to lunatics.  Your idea of AM is cell salts. You’re a parody of the worst that AM has to offer.  It’s clear that you can’t consider the possibility that cell salts have been considered and dismissed for lack of theory and evidence. I don’t think people have looked into cell salts enough..

No shit. For instance how many people know that calcium gets rid of headlice and athletes foot? How many people know that sodium phosphate and sulphate get rid of knotted back and neck muscles? People have looked at cell salts superficially and then dismissed them.

Because there’s so little anecdotal evidence and no theory. I think cell salts are an example of the BEST to be found in this

newsgroup And narcissistic.  Why don’t you ask and see how many people here believe your claims that cell salts can cure 95% of disease? and I don’t see why there is so much conventional science thinking in this newsgroup when its supposed to be alternative health.

It’s a discussion forum. erf

Response:

John: <"Most people have never heard of cell or tissue salts.   Your argument falls." I was referring to other posters in this NG — sorry if that wasn’t clear. <" There do not seem to be any controlled studies on tissue salts to either prove or disprove the issue.   Be careful you don’t overreact to Carole’s posting style.  Tissue salts remain unproven." There is no *one* cure for every health problem.  To say a certain treatment is effective for x, y, & z can be reasonable, even if open for debate — not the case with Carole & cell salts.  Diagnosing & prescribing cell salts for every condition mentioned on this NG isn’t just Carole’s posting style, it’s the philosophy behind cell salts, as stated right in the Biochemic Handbook. Any particular treatment, drug, diet, surgery, exercise, or supplement — conventional or alternative — that promises cures for *everything* is bogus. Michele

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 Clinical reports by qualified physicians treating MS with vitamins should never be dismissed out of hand.  If one has been discouraged from looking into studies of successful nutrition-based MS therapy, one has been sadly misled.  Persons seriously concerned need to take a personal look at the research. Two articles on nutritional therapy for multiple sclerosis are posted at http://doctoryourself.com/ms_2.html (Dr Evers’ nutritional therapy) and http://doctoryourself.com/calcdef.html (Dr Klenner’s vitamin protocol). Both of these physicians were MDs, and had considerable success arresting multiple sclerosis, and at times reversing it. That is hard to believe, but is certainly interesting. Many people with MS are already working on their diet and may be taking some vitamins. This is an excellent start.  But Frederick Klenner, MD, used unusually large quantities of nutrients, especially thiamin. Thiamin deficiency in animals results in degeneration of the myelin coating of nerve fibers.  This is anatomically indistinguishable from multiple sclerosis. (From the DOCTOR YOURSELF NEWSLETTER, Vol 1, No 7, Jan 2001. Subscriptions are free of charge at http://doctoryourself.com/newsmail.html) — 200 articles (indexed by topic, or keyword with an on-site search engine) plus 2,700 scientific references on nutritional therapeutics are posted at http://doctoryourself.com  I have no financial connection

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Carole: <"For instance how many people know that calcium gets rid of headlice and athletes foot?  How many people know that sodium phosphate and sulphate get rid of knotted back and neck muscles?" Most people know it doesn’t work to cure any of the problems you’ve mentioned.. <" I really meant to go take your drugs (which would then kill you) and I didn’t mean to say for you to kill yourself.  What do you take me for?" That statement says a lot about what people should "take you for". <"…..and I don’t see why there is so much conventional science thinking in this newsgroup when its supposed to be alternative health."

I don’t see why you present so much irrational thinking & "one cure fits all" nonsense in this newsgroup when it’s supposed to be alternative health. You’re not running into just "scientific" thinking in this NG, Carole — you’re running into people on *both* sides of the health care fence who *think*.  That’s why your cell salts stuff is dismissed as the malarkey it is. Michele

Response:

How’s your now even more non degree fairing in the wake of the latest scandal involving Greenwich U?  What purchased doctorate does the "Dr." before your name refer to now? arf

Response:

How’s your now even more non degree fairing in the wake of the latest scandal involving Greenwich U?  What purchased doctorate does the "Dr." before your name refer to now? arf

I think the message is more important than details of the name. The point is there are many more nutritional cures than you or your precious scientific medical people want to admit or want to know about. Go and kill yourself with your drugs and give alternative medicine a break. woof! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

I just wanted to add, to my last message, that I am not saying what happened to me could happen to your child.  All kids are different.  I am just saying beware of all the physical and psychological effects that kids can go through when being restricted, if they in fact know, that that is what is happening and they really don’t understand (or are not old enough yet to understand) why .. why they can’t have this chocolate or that soda type things. Sorry for rambling. Rhonda

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very true! My husband and I have taken a whole foods, organic approach with my son (now age seven) and the results are remarkable. He doesn’t eat much in the way of fresh fruits and vegetables (he only likes "crunchy" things so he gets a raw carrot a day, and eats a banana under duress once a week) but he eats strictly organic whole grain bread, pasta and cereals, with no processed sugar, and when given the choice, prefers organic no-salt corn chips to anything sweet! We give him multi-vitamins and follow the "no food wars" theory proposed by T. Berry Brazelton (no fighting about food – just give them a range of healthy choices and then let them decide what they want – children will naturally, if exposed to good food from birth, choose what their bodies need). My son is extraordinarily healthy – no ear infections, maybe one cold a winter (no fevers or flus), never has gone to the doctor except for school required physicals and vaccinations! And when Halloween and other "sugar" times roll around, he actually throws out everything except plain chocolate. We aren’t fanatics – he can have ice cream and plain chocolate pretty much when he wants – he just doesn’t choose to eat any of that other candy or those hideous "fruit roll up" or supposed "granola bar" type of snacks that kids are programmed to enjoy (and NO soft drinks! Children should drink WATER, MILK or nothing in my opinion….there is nothing that disturbs me more in a fast food restaurant than watching people give toddlers and children sugary soft drinks!). Anyway – sorry to rant, but it is possible and a good thing to get your children eating healthy from the earliest age so they don’t have to suffer through health problems and obesity later on!

This sounds like an excellent approach to me.  I’ve seen it work many times.  It’s how I plan to raise my kids, when I get around to having them. Cyndi 160/151/135 — 9 down, 16 to go Low-carb vegetarian + seafood since 7/28/98 "There’s nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there’s                     Cyndi Norman                          Owner of the Immune Lists: http://www.best.com/~immune

Response:

Texas list? Gee, isn’t that a little far from home for you Brenda? — Debbie Cusick see pictures of me and my son Brock at http://asd.dozer.com/bio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh Hi Sharon! I used to see you around on the Texas List!  How are you going? I’m about 2 lb lighter that I was then!!

Response:

This is pretty much the way I raised my son. It  didn’t stop him from developing a weight problem and getting heavy when he got to be a teenager, and didn’t stop him from snarfing down the cola and pizza when hanging out with his friends. However he has turned his diet around in the last couple years too and says he no longer craves that stuff most of the time. He looks with disgust at my sister who lets her kids live on Coke, Cocoa Puffs and candy bars because "they ask me to buy it" and says "I’m glad you’re my Mom instead of your sister". I guess I did something right. — Debbie Cusick see pictures of me and my son Brock at http://asd.dozer.com/bio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This sounds like an excellent approach to me.  I’ve seen it work many times.  It’s how I plan to raise my kids, when I get around to having them.

Response:

Oh Hi Sharon! I used to see you around on the Texas List!  How are you going? I’m about 2 lb lighter that I was then!!  Yeah … darned plateau … hope you are doing better. The book Feed Your Kids Well by Fred Pescatore, M.D. who is assoc medical director of the Atkin center,,,is a good read and has instructions for weight loss for children Happy low carb Sharon

– ~^

Question:

In article <7420a8$d2…@nnrp03.primenet.com>,   jrg…@hotmail.-x-REMOVE-x-THIS-x-PART-x-.com (Jason Gill) wrote: > Are there any particular stretching exercises, or just kinda in general move > your neck around? > — > Jason Gill > "It was easy for God to create the world in six days >  because He had no installed user base."

I get the best stretches by tilting the head slowly to the side and then angling it forward (hold for ~twenty seconds) and then angle it backwards (and hold) I think its important to hold the stretches for long enough to let the muscles release and to do the stretches slowly with no bouncing or jerking (that type of movement would just agitate them) A stretch straight back with the chin tucked into the chest also feels good. Try doing that one with some slight angling to the side and you will feel it all along the side of you jaw. I often apply heat before the stretch (I’ll let hot water pound on my neck and scalp in the shower or apply a hot water bottle) and ice afterwards. There are some "relaxation" sites out there that give better explanations of the best stretches. Good luck. paul ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

Dear Paul, You have brought up a major point, not every sinus pain comes from the sinus. I my book, How to Be Free of Sinus Disease, I state that 90% of the people who come to me with sinus pain, it is from the neck or other areas. Your suggestion of neck exercise is excellent . Many of my patients benefit by doing the cercical exercises in the shower with the shower on the back of the neck. this helps remove the lactic acid that is the pain factor. You might be interested in the discussion at http://www.ent-consult.com of why the frontal area is in pain from the cervical area. Thanks Paul for bringing up an important topic. By the way, cervical pain is not always stress, it can be posture, strain, anatomy, etc. Best wishes, Murray Grossan, M.D. http;/www.ent-consult.com  tell a friend Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

In article <19981205224533.01092.00000…@ng-fi1.aol.com>,   entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear Paul, > You have brought up a major point, not every sinus pain comes from the sinus. I > my book, > How to Be Free of Sinus Disease, I state that 90% of the people who come to me > with sinus pain, it is from the neck or other areas. > Your suggestion of neck exercise is excellent . Many of my patients benefit by > doing the cercical exercises in the shower with the shower on the back of the > neck. this helps remove the lactic acid that is the pain factor. > You might be interested in the discussion at http://www.ent-consult.com of why > the frontal area is in pain from the cervical area. > Thanks Paul for bringing up an important topic. > By the way, cervical pain is not always stress, it can be posture, strain, > anatomy, etc. > Best wishes, > Murray Grossan, M.D. http;/www.ent-consult.com  tell a friend > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com

Thank you Dr. Grossan for the confirmation that my theories about my headaches make some sense. Its nice to hear. Would you have an opinion on the possibility that the tension in the neck muscles, in addition to manifesting itself as headaches and a sore neck, could also be responsible for the blocked ears. Unencumberd by medical knowledge of the details of the musculature in the region, I can imagine that the stressed muscles constrict the eustachian tube. The blocked tube is then prone to infections and pressure build-up. Any other recommendations for controlling lactic acid? Thanks for the reply. Paul ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

Dear Paul, I haven’t seen blocked ears from cervical muscle problems. Most of the blocked ears are due to nasal infection/ slow cilia . Thlis is one reason why speeding the cilia helps the ear. Unfortunately, many of the persons who have "blocked ears" that fail to respond to treatment may turn out to have inner ear problems. This is easy to miss if one isn’t a specialisti in this field. Remember, try to do the cervical exercises in shower. Another good remover of lactic acid is Slow Release Niacin. 125 mg twice a day. The dose is important, larger doses don’t work as well. This small dose is hard to find and usually has to be ordered. Best, Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

I’ve suffered from what I always thought were sinus headaches for over three years now. I tried every antibiotic, herb, steam therapy, acupuncture irrigation posture, prescription and non-prescription drug, diet etc. I had FESS. And nothing ever worked. After the FESS my ENT looked up the sinues and said that he could see nothing that could be causing blockage. And that started me thinking that perhaps congested and infected sinuses were not the only possible explanation for my symptoms of headaches, fatigure, achey eyes, and blocked ears. If someone had told me two years ago that stress and tension were the problem I wouldn’t have given them the time of day. Although I did have a constantly sore back and a "scrunchy" neck, and I could imagine how these could cause headaches, I couldn’t imagine how that could cause the symptoms with the eyes and ears (which seemed so obviously sinus related.) I mentally put the sore neck away as something I would deal with if I ever fixed the headaches. But because it seemed interesting that alot of other people on this ng had similar "unrelated" problems with their neck (I recall a thread discussing the sounds that people’s necks made as they turned them) and for lack of any other quack remedy to try I decided to try out the therapies recommedned for tension headaches, mainly various relaxation techniques (mental imagery, successive body part tensing, breating etc) and gentle stretching of the neck and back. I feel better than I have for ages. And because I am doing this myself I feel I am once again in control rather than the other way around. I think the major factor has been the slow stretching of my neck muscles that had constricted because of my desk-work. When I stretch them I feel a tingling all the way from my temples down behind my ears to below my shoulders. Additionally, albeit with no science to back it up, I believe that my "sinus-type" symptoms can also be partly attributed to tension in these neck muscles. Sometimes when I stretch I can actually hear my ears "pop" and open. If you’ve tried everything else for you sinuses with no improvement you might want to try out the tension busting techniques. They’re free and easy to work into your day. If your problem really is sinus (as most will be I assume) then worst case you will have set out some time each day to relax. The relaxation techniques themselves can be very powerful, at times I’ve been able to cut a bad headache down to something manageable after twenty minutes of focussed breathing. It won’t hurt and it might help. paul ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

 One thing that works for me is Chiropractic adjustment. Many Chiropractors also use Massage Therapy either by themselves, or associated with their practice. The adjustment of the neck and "pressure points" many many times relieves stress, and headaches. A good massage works as a stress reliever also. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:03:05 GMT, pmad…@newbridge.com wrote: >I’ve suffered from what I always thought were sinus headaches for over three >years now. I tried every antibiotic, herb, steam therapy, acupuncture >irrigation posture, prescription and non-prescription drug, diet etc. I had >FESS. And nothing ever worked. After the FESS my ENT looked up the sinues and >said that he could see nothing that could be causing blockage. And that >started me thinking that perhaps congested and infected sinuses were not the >only possible explanation for my symptoms of headaches, fatigure, achey eyes, >and blocked ears. >If someone had told me two years ago that stress and tension were the problem >I wouldn’t have given them the time of day. Although I did have a constantly >sore back and a "scrunchy" neck, and I could imagine how these could cause >headaches, I couldn’t imagine how that could cause the symptoms with the eyes >and ears (which seemed so obviously sinus related.) I mentally put the sore >neck away as something I would deal with if I ever fixed the headaches. >But because it seemed interesting that alot of other people on this ng had >similar "unrelated" problems with their neck (I recall a thread discussing the >sounds that people’s necks made as they turned them) and for lack of any other >quack remedy to try I decided to try out the therapies recommedned for tension >headaches, mainly various relaxation techniques (mental imagery, successive >body part tensing, breating etc) and gentle stretching of the neck and back. >I feel better than I have for ages. And because I am doing this myself I feel >I am once again in control rather than the other way around. >I think the major factor has been the slow stretching of my neck muscles that >had constricted because of my desk-work. When I stretch them I feel a tingling >all the way from my temples down behind my ears to below my shoulders. >Additionally, albeit with no science to back it up, I believe that my >"sinus-type" symptoms can also be partly attributed to tension in these neck >muscles. Sometimes when I stretch I can actually hear my ears "pop" and open. >If you’ve tried everything else for you sinuses with no improvement you might >want to try out the tension busting techniques. They’re free and easy to work >into your day. If your problem really is sinus (as most will be I assume) then >worst case you will have set out some time each day to relax. The relaxation >techniques themselves can be very powerful, at times I’ve been able to cut a >bad headache down to something manageable after twenty minutes of focussed >breathing. >It won’t hurt and it might help. >paul >———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- >http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

In article <741p2m$6h…@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pmad…@newbridge.com wrote: >If you’ve tried everything else for you sinuses with no improvement you might >want to try out the tension busting techniques. They’re free and easy to work >into your day. If your problem really is sinus (as most will be I assume) then >worst case you will have set out some time each day to relax. The relaxation >techniques themselves can be very powerful, at times I’ve been able to cut a >bad headache down to something manageable after twenty minutes of focussed >breathing.

Are there any particular stretching exercises, or just kinda in general move your neck around? — Jason Gill "It was easy for God to create the world in six days  because He had no installed user base."

Response:

Question:

Congrats to all of you who have lost weight.  For those of you who said you lost a shitload in no time,l I hope you can keep it off.  Most of us don’t–no matter what new drug/diet/protein shake bullshit we used to do it. Them’s the straight facts. In 1990 I lost over 100 lbs. in around 18 weeks.  I was thin for the first time in my memorable life. I gained it all back and more within 18 months.  Statistically, most of you will probably also. Why?  Because most of us have MENTAL/EMOTIONAL reasons for being overweight.  We have poor eating habits.  We eat when depressed or feeling negative… a cycle which breeds itself over and over until we deal with it or die. So no matter how much you lose and how fast you do it, try and learn something…  like how to live responsibly.  Otherwise you are doomed. Carrying a serious amount of excess weight is why you are labeled as "fat." But it’s what’s in your mind that keeps you there. The "magic bullet" mentality may have been successful for some of us, but in the end it is unhealthy and not worth it. "Okay hotshot," you might be thinking, "How can it be any more unhealthy than being fat?"  Just ask a doctor.  The Yo-Yo syndrome is terrible for your heart.  It’s worse than being fat. I have been there and done that, so believe me I know. Either way, I sincerely hope that however any of you who read this feel about what I am saying, you can accept the fact that I am pulling for all of you.  Being fat sucks. I just hope you don’t kill yourself trying to get rid of it all, or go through the pain we all feel when we realize too late that we threw away all we had achieved because we didn’t learn how to eat like humans. Don’t give up, no matter how often you give in. Kevin

Response:

Why?  Because most of us have MENTAL/EMOTIONAL reasons for being overweight.

<Snort! Thanks, but you don’t speak for me, and I’d wager that you don’t speak for the majority of overweight people. Now go back to your support group and make nicey-nicey with them. And don’t let the door hit your behind on the way out of here. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Why?  Because most of us have MENTAL/EMOTIONAL reasons for being overweight.

Speak for yourself.  We have poor eating habits.  We eat when depressed or feeling negative…

I *can’t* eat if I am depressed, or excited, or nervous. My problem was a faulty metabolism. Something meds treat. J — Millihelen n. The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. Email me at jetgal at earthlink dot net.

Response:

Hey Fred! What you say is totally true. The problem is that people think that if they take a drug or go on a "diet" that once they lose weight, they can go back to their old life of eating fast food every day and not exercising at all. The truth is that weight loss/gain comes down to one thing. To lose weight and keep it off, YOU HAVE TO BURN MORE CALORIES THAN YOU CONSUME. If you go back to eating more than you burn, the weight will come back. The only way to keep it off is to change your lifestyle. With that said, I want to say there are products which work. I sell one of them. Metabolife 356. Even though it is true that the weight will come back if you don’t change your habits, some people WANT to change their habits once they see real results! or visit my website at www.inficad.com/~xtal. Thanks, and good luck! Crystal

Congrats to all of you who have lost weight.  For those of you who said you lost a shitload in no time,l I hope you can keep it off.  Most of us don’t–no matter what new drug/diet/protein shake bullshit we used to do it. Them’s the straight facts. In 1990 I lost over 100 lbs. in around 18 weeks.  I was thin for the first time in my memorable life. I gained it all back and more within 18 months.  Statistically, most of you will probably also. Why?  Because most of us have MENTAL/EMOTIONAL reasons for being overweight. We have poor eating habits.  We eat when depressed or feeling negative… a cycle which breeds itself over and over until we deal with it or die. So no matter how much you lose and how fast you do it, try and learn something…  like how to live responsibly.  Otherwise you are doomed. Carrying a serious amount of excess weight is why you are labeled as "fat." But it’s what’s in your mind that keeps you there. The "magic bullet" mentality may have been successful for some of us, but in the end it is unhealthy and not worth it. "Okay hotshot," you might be thinking, "How can it be any more unhealthy than being fat?"  Just ask a doctor.  The Yo-Yo syndrome is terrible for your heart.  It’s worse than being fat. I have been there and done that, so believe me I know. Either way, I sincerely hope that however any of you who read this feel about what I am saying, you can accept the fact that I am pulling for all of you.  Being fat sucks. I just hope you don’t kill yourself trying to get rid of it all, or go through the pain we all feel when we realize too late that we threw away all we had achieved because we didn’t learn how to eat like humans. Don’t give up, no matter how often you give in. Kevin

Response:

Question:

My wife snores so loud that she has woken me up while I was peacefully sleeping in another room with the door shut. We won’t be spending the night together ever again, unless I go deaf! But she is the one going deaf, so she turns the TV so loud that I can’t stand to be in the same room with her. So I spend all my time in the computer room when she is home. I told her all that and she just doesn’t seem to get it. So don’t tell me to talk to her. — Keith Hardwick web page is up at   http://home.att.net/~keithncarol/web_page.htm Lots of good info for newcomers to alt.support.depression.manic  and soc.support.depression.manic!

Response:

Don, What’s your email address? When I do a "reply to" the mail is returned – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the time.  If I’m not in bed by 9:00 p.m., I can be up till one or two if I’m not careful.  The good news is I read a lot and catch the late newscast. Don

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder how many marriage breakups have snoring as one of the factors??? No kidding!!!!!!  My husband’s snoring is so horrible.  In our other house, I used to sleep in the car at times because I couldn’t get away from it…. now, I am somewhat orphaned in this house, as I have really no place to "park" at night but I don’t have to sleep outside. When my in-laws visit, they chastise me for not sleeping in the same room with him and tell us that I don’t love my husband….. I get so upset with that being the total definition of a marriage. I do think it puts a tremendous strain on a marriage though.  I have held out the hope through all our years of marriage that this problem may go away.  Two years ago, my husband got a cpac machine, but he doesn’t like wearing it… he is supposed to have it until he loses weight, but that has yet to happen too. I don’t care how he looks, I just want the damn noise to stop.

My fiance snores so loud.  I used to have a problem with it but now I wear earplugs and take a Klonopin or two.  Also he ends up falling asleep on the couch a lot anyway.  I don’t even notice one way or another anymore. What is a cpac machine? Aurora

Response:

Hi James! Just read your suggestion to Heather about the sleep machine, and thought i’d butt in real quick to thank you for the idea. I didn’t even know about these things (yes, i do live under a rock when at all possible!), although i should have by now with my insomnia. I’m lucky to get 4 hours most nights. When i get some money, i may try one, because i’ve been finding the TV helps a little. However, the voices become distracting and i start thinking they’re from elsewhere sometimes. My fan isn’t loud enough to cover up the sounds coming from down the block or the sounds the fridge and water dispenser make, which i end up obsessing over all night, thinking someone might be breaking in (makes no sense, with a dog that would bark his head off!). Anyways, thanks for the suggestion, it just may work! Take care, kim

Response:

What is a cpac machine? Aurora

It is a device to assist with breathing for people who suffer from sleep apnea.

Response:

I wonder how many marriage breakups have snoring as one of the factors???

No kidding!!!!!!  My husband’s snoring is so horrible.  In our other house, I used to sleep in the car at times because I couldn’t get away from it…. now, I am somewhat orphaned in this house, as I have really no place to "park" at night but I don’t have to sleep outside. When my in-laws visit, they chastise me for not sleeping in the same room with him and tell us that I don’t love my husband….. I get so upset with that being the total definition of a marriage. I do think it puts a tremendous strain on a marriage though.  I have held out the hope through all our years of marriage that this problem may go away.  Two years ago, my husband got a cpac machine, but he doesn’t like wearing it… he is supposed to have it until he loses weight, but that has yet to happen too. I don’t care how he looks, I just want the damn noise to stop.

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Heather Rae One thing I failed to mention is that I use a "sleep" machine to generate a constant noise source. I have been using a Marsona 1200 device for some 15-20 years. My favorite sound for sleep is the "Rain on the Roof" setting. I also like the "Waterfall" as well as the two different "Surf" sounds. The latter I use strictly for relaxation purposes since I seem to require a constant sound for sleeping purposes. BTW I used to run a fan as my sound source — but that seems to be a dumb idea in the wintertime. Besides my sleep machine draws less than 5 watts. I certainly don’t know if such a device would improve your sleep. But I have become very dependent upon mine. In fact if the power goes off, I immediately wake up as though an alarm had gone off. My beloved machine cost more than $100 back when I got it. As with all things electronic, the price should have dropped considerably. In fact I recently saw another brand in Walgreens Drug Store for under $50. My main concern with that particular model was that the volume wasn’t very loud. BTW I wake up if a cat walks by a block away. So I need the sound level to be able to drown out ambient sounds. However my machine at full volume was insufficient to overcome my wife’s snoring. (( This tremendously disturbed my sleep so much that I eventually had to sleep in a guest bedroom. I wonder how many marriage breakups have snoring as one of the factors??? Here’s wishing you pleasant dreams from, James

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Heather Rae – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, James – I know there are medications for sleep, but I am lucky enough to stay on Wellbutrin as it is.   Actually, I do not advocate taking "sleeping" pills — unless absolutely necessary and then only on a PRN basis. What I favor are meds that attempt to treat the underlying causes of what is preventing a person from obtaining the proper amount and depth of sleep. Many antimania or antipsychotic meds (depending upon the symptoms) are effective in this regard. Personally I take an antimania med, Klonopin (clonazepam), a half hour prior to wanting to sleep. If a person takes a total of 1.5 mg/day or less, there should be little or no danger of addiction. This is not meant to imply that if a person takes more than this conservative limit, they will necessarily become addicted.  I am curious.  How is it that any kind of a sleeping med can help one get to sleep better?

Are you asking about the biochemistry of sleeping meds? I mean, if you (or anyone) tried to stay awake after taking it (say Klonopin specifically), would it still work, that is, make you tired enough to want to go to sleep anyway?

It does me. My usual bedtime routine is to read a non-technical book. When I find that my concentration starts to wander or I am about to drop the book, I turn the light off and I am normally asleep within 30 seconds. I usually sleep 4-5 hours in the early morning — which is a LOT better than the 1-2 hours I used to get before Klonopin. In addition I usually take a 1-3 hour nap in the afternoon. So my total sleep for the 24-hour period is 5-8 hours. What does it feel like waking up after taking Klonopin?

I don’t find it any harder to do with or without it. I still need my coffee in the morning to wake up my brain. <G  My sleeping habits are terrible and I doubt I will ever be able to get to sleep on time and up on my own for school every morning without assistance of some kind.  I need to accept this.  My mother wakes me up right now, luckily.

I don’t even have an alarm clock. If you posted an FAQ about Klonopin (along with all the other FAQ’s on meds I saw) recently, I believe I saved it, but I don’t know if it answers those questions above.  I will read through it.

I don’t think Klonopin was among the FAQ topics. Heather Rae – feeling tired and a little depressed

James — just feeling tired

Response:

   From the time I wake up (whenever that is! Usually between 6am and noon) until the next 9pm-10pm time comes around I feel "okay," but once 9pm comes comes around and until about 3am or 4am I am full of energy. It’s not enough to say I get hypomanic every night, but it sure keeps me from a regular sleep schedule.  I need longer days.  If I could have 30 – 32 hour days, I definitely wouldn’t have insomnia anymore.

(snip) Heather Rae

Absolutely know where you are coming from.  The strange thing is I think that if I had more outlets for my energy, which usually is not manic but as you noted keeps one from a "normal" nights sleep,  then maybe I would sleep 6-8 a day like the rest of the world.  I don’t think I have yawned in years. When I do find things to do and want to be around people they can’t keep up. I have found something that helps, I write fiction now.  More specifically screenplays.  It is about the only thing that keeps me seated for a prolonged period.  Only one drawback, my appetite goes through the roof. Give some short stories or something a try.  If your like me with my foot bouncing up and down all the time;   might stop it. Doug

Response:

  I always get a surge of energy and feelings of well being at about 9:30 at night.  It lasts til about 1:am.  Anyone else the same way? Take Care Shawnie http://www.adventureangling.com/books/index.htm

I have always had a problem with sleep.  I don’t know if its an energy surge or not.  I don’t know if its being done with studying or not but I stay up until 3am or 4am.  Then I have an awful time getting up on school days at 8am but days that I don’t have school I can sleep in until noon. Betsy

Response:

  I always get a surge of energy and feelings of well being at about 9:30 at night.  It lasts til about 1:am.  Anyone else the same way? Take Care Shawnie

Yes, same here… starting at about 11 pm…. I have kids… I think that has something to do with it… things finally settle down, and I can get my things done. CRSTNKTH

Response:

 I always get a surge of energy and feelings of well being at about 9:30 at night.  It lasts til about 1:am.  Anyone else the same way?

Yep, sure do. Ever since I was very young I’ve been convinced I’m nocturnal. I start perking up at about 9 at night, feel full of energy, and even if I do manage to sleep during the night, I feel really sleepy from lunchtime until 9. My body obviously thinks it’s in Thailand or somewhere. Alice

Response:

<Posted and Mailed. <A Whole Lot of Snipping Going On! Yeah, James – I know there are medications for sleep, but I am lucky enough to stay on Wellbutrin as it is.  

Actually, I do not advocate taking "sleeping" pills — unless absolutely necessary and then only on a PRN basis. What I favor are meds that attempt to treat the underlying causes of what is preventing a person from obtaining the proper amount and depth of sleep. Many antimania or antipsychotic meds (depending upon the symptoms) are effective in this regard. Personally I take an antimania med, Klonopin (clonazepam), a half hour prior to wanting to sleep. If a person takes a total of 1.5 mg/day or less, there should be little or no danger of addiction. This is not meant to imply that if a person takes more than this conservative limit, they will necessarily become addicted. I hope this helps! Heather Rae

Best wishes for better sleep for us all from, James

Response:

When I wake up it is a complete toss-up how I will feel, but almost always right around 2:00pm I get depressed, sometimes to the point of just laying on the sofa and staring into space.  Then about 6:00pm things start to pick up and by 7:00 I am usually to some degree hypomanic.  This lasts until 3:00-4:00am. Kimberly, who has always been a night owl

Response:

We have found great relief using Advil PM (or what ever it is called) to take the edge off so Bob can rest on those rough nights.  But I just read in the NG that there are interactions with lithium and Non-steroidal Anti-imflammatroies ie. Advil, Motrin. Now I’m not sure if we should keep using them on the odd occation.        With

Question:

Western medicine has only been around for a couple hundred years, the western medical establishment have some audacity calling Chinese medicine non-traditional or alternative.  If acupuncture is not used much for MS, it is because in China MS is practically unheard of.  The Chinese diet promotes health and balance.  I have had MS for nearly ten years.  Three months ago I made a switch in my diet to traditional Chinese herbal foods. The relief of my symptoms has been so dramatic, that many of my friends and family are also starting to modify their diets. Todd Garfield   In article <199610121844.OAA18…@mime3.prodigy.com>, KELLY SWANSON – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<PRLJ…@PRODIGY.COM> wrote: >Paul wrote…. . Now what about this accupuncture treat >-ment? I once checked into that and was told that it could not help >MS – >that acupuncture was only for pain – or is that why you are going >that route? >                                 Paul Eberl >********** >Acupuncture has been of tremendous help to me. It is for much more >than pain.  It is to get your system working in balance and with MS >your system is out of balance.   Find someone who has been trained >and hope you will notice a difference. >K

Response:

My first MS attack was nine years ago. I was in hospital for three weeks and had steroids in tablet form – bad withdrawal symptoms, I was very sick! I tried a crash course of acupuncture for about eight weeks, as I had an important job deadline. It worked wonders, and I made the job O.K. and had nine years total remission. I relapsed this last June with little warning and again had steroids, this time straight in my arm. Wow! no withdrawal sickness at all! I tried acupuncture, but had a second relapse, and had more steroids. Three months on and I still have to walk with a stick, as I still have trouble with my right side. I am certainly planning to try acup. again. I have found the Kombucha mushroom a great help this time around. Jim

Response:

        Paul,  i am going for help with all the pain I have. it is being used along  with hypnosis and emotional therapy.         none of these tx will cure my MS, but so far have helped my attitude, and how I feel having this "thing called MS".  the hypnosis has helped my pain greatly, as well as my way of looking at life. As far as accupuncture, it was my first tx.  He said he was going to start slow, i had a very thin needle placed in both ankles, shins, and both wrists. then helped them by placing electrodes on the needles. there was no pain.  he first had asked me to rate my pain in the spots i usually have the most pain, it was an 8 or 9. when he was through. the pain and burning that was in my knees was almost, maybe a 4.  but they were still stiff. since he didn’t go to deep into it the first time, the other spots still hurt greatly.         I still had to do the bride of franenstein walk out to my car.         nevt time, fri. he said he will be doing a more in depth one.  i will say it made me a little woozy, so it was a while before they let me up.         I figure if these tx i go for won’t hurt me, and if they help even only a little, then they are worth it.  To me i find it better than trying experimental drugs, believe me i’m not critisizing anyone who tries them, but with my history of  severe drug allergies, these things seem by far the safest for me, and they seem to work.  AM 10/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >s_guziejka wrote: >> I had another seizure, first in months, but feel most >Sorry to hear about your seizure, Sue. Now what about this accupuncture treat >-ment? I once checked into that and was told that it could not help MS – >that accupuncture was only for pain – or is that why you are going that route? >Hope you enjoy the fall folliage festival! >                                 Paul Eberl

               __..–”“—….___   _…_    __         /// //_.-’    .-/";  `        “<._  “.”_ `.         luv and meow        ///_.-’ _..–.’_                        `( ) ) // //      susan       / (_..-’ // (< _     ;_..__               ; `’ / ///      / // // //  `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / //  Dreams are the touchstones of our characters.             Thoreau (1817-1862)

Response:

At 11:41 AM 10/12/96 PDT, you wrote: >I have heard acupunture can help us from a few people in the MS Newsgroup.

If you have time would you mind telling me how it has benifeted you? Thanks in advance..         I will repeat the same response i gave to Paul, just in case something goes weird at least one or both of you will have my response.          As far as accupuncture, it was my first tx.  He said he was going to start slow, i had a very thin needle placed in both ankles, shins, and both wrists. then helped them by placing electrodes on the needles. there was no pain.  he first had asked me to rate my pain in the spots i usually have the most pain, it was an 8 or 9. when he was through. the pain and burning that was in my knees was almost, maybe a 4.  but they were still stiff. since he didn’t go to deep into it the first time, the other spots still hurt greatly. >        I still had to do the bride of franenstein walk out to my car. >        nevt time, fri. he said he will be doing a more in depth one.  i

will say it made me a little woozy, so it was a while before they let me up. >        I figure if these tx i go for won’t hurt me, and if they help even

only a little, then they are worth it.  To me i find it better than trying experimental drugs, believe me i’m not critisizing anyone who tries them, but with my history of  severe drug allergies, these things seem by far the safest for me, and they seem to work.         but hopefully I’ll have more to report on the positive effects after a few more TX.  and I am thinking POSITIVE because all the pain I’m in doesn’t for easy living.         take care                __..–”“—….___   _…_    __         /// //_.-’    .-/";  `        “<._  “.”_ `.         luv and meow        ///_.-’ _..–.’_                        `( ) ) // //      susan       / (_..-’ // (< _     ;_..__               ; `’ / ///      / // // //  `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / //  Dreams are the touchstones of our characters.             Thoreau (1817-1862)

Response:

Hi! At 11 41  12/10/96 PDT, you wrote: >I have heard acupunture can help us from a few people in the MS Newsgroup.

If you have time would you mind telling me how it has benifeted you? Thanks in advance.. I went weekly for at least 6 months and the only effect whatsoever was a lightening of my wallet. I have great weakness down the right side and need a wheelchair for all but a few steps so improvement would/should have been noticed if any occurred. Best wishes, Martin Lee (YLee on FIBS) "Look on my dice, ye Mighty, and DESPAIR!" voice mail:             01535-670368 mobile – esp. weekends! 0831-493440 75 Cartmel Road Keighley West Yorkshire ENGLAND BD21 2JB

Response:

jim…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Jim Matthews") wrote: >My first MS attack was nine years ago. I was in hospital for three weeks >and had steroids in tablet form – bad withdrawal symptoms, I was very >sick! I tried a crash course of acupuncture for about eight weeks, as I >had an important job deadline. It worked wonders, and I made the job O.K. >and had nine years total remission. I relapsed this last June with little >warning and again had steroids, this time straight in my arm. Wow! no >withdrawal sickness at all! I tried acupuncture, but had a second >relapse, and had more steroids. Three months on and I still have to walk >with a stick, as I still have trouble with my right side. I am certainly >planning to try acup. again. I have found the Kombucha mushroom a great >help this time around. >Jim

Jim & Gang Don’t know who your neurologist is but you should find another for a second opinion before using more steroids.  IV steroids should not be used more than once every six months and, optimally, once a year!  There are too many internal side effects that aren’t seen until later.  Ask me!!! I have degenerative bone disease with spontaneous fractures.  In other words, you don’t have to do something like fall to fracture something.  Fractures can occur with just normal movement.  I have diabetes that requires insulin to control.  I have pain all the time in my spine because it is begining to crumble from the bone disease.  All of this from overuse of steroids early in my MS treatment.  Now "they" seem to know better.  Or at least most of them do. From each relapse, it is possible to recover some use of lost function and never recover all of it.  It is possible to not recover any lost function and it is possible to recover all of it.  Each of us varies and, in addition, we vary with each relapse.  Also RR disease can change to another form of the disease.  Why all this occurs is not known. I do hope you continue to recover.  You will need to learn how the changes in your body will affect your life and make adjustments accordingly.  I would suggest you seek the assistance of a support group, your society or a counselor that is familiar with what MS does to the various areas of life for assistance.   It will be much easier than trying to do it without the understanding of people who have been there or have studied extensively.  We are always here to be of assistance.                         L

Response:

Haven’t posted in quite awhile, but this thread ’bout accupuncture struck a cord. A month ago, after condescending to my wifes concern about my getting the Intrathecal Liorsel Pump, I agreed to try the tiny needle route. The accupuncturist asked the same questions, put the needles in the same places <plus both ears>, then turned down the lights, put on some relaxing music, and said "relax and I’ll be back in 20 minutes". After 20 minutes he returned, removed the needles and said "I’ll see you in a week".  N  O  T I asked him how much education he had and he said a bachelors degree. Well…I’ve got a BS, my son has a BA, and the guy’s got a BQ..BACHELORS OF QUACKERY! IAW…it aint for me.   Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -_guziejka <s_guzie…@MAIL.CONKNET.COM> wrote: >        Paul,  i am going for help with all the pain I have. it is being >used along  with hypnosis and emotional therapy. >        none of these tx will cure my MS, but so far have helped my >attitude, and how I feel having this "thing called MS".  the hypnosis has >helped my pain greatly, as well as my way of looking at life. As far as >accupuncture, it was my first tx.  He said he was going to start slow, i had >a very thin needle placed in both ankles, shins, and both wrists. then >helped them by placing electrodes on the needles. there was no pain.  he >first had asked me to rate my pain in the spots i usually have the most >pain, it was an 8 or 9. when he was through. the pain and burning that was >in my knees was almost, maybe a 4.  but they were still stiff. since he >didn’t go to deep into it the first time, the other spots still hurt greatly. >        I still had to do the bride of franenstein walk out to my car. >        nevt time, fri. he said he will be doing a more in depth one.  i >will say it made me a little woozy, so it was a while before they let me up. >        I figure if these tx i go for won’t hurt me, and if they help even >only a little, then they are worth it.  To me i find it better than trying >experimental drugs, believe me i’m not critisizing anyone who tries them, >but with my history of  severe drug allergies, these things seem by far the >safest for me, and they seem to work.

Response:

Kenny Howard wrote: > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old

 son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s older? All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that  there are cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of it  being passed on is 1-2%.                                    Paul Eberl —              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY!

Response:

Paul/Joyce Eberl wrote: > Kenny Howard wrote: > > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old

 son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s older? > All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that  there are > cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of it  being > passed on is 1-2%. >                                    Paul Eberl > — >              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY!

Hi.  I live in Alberta.  I go to the MS clinic in Calgary, Alberta. They are studing herity and MS plus the area I was born and now live (Crowsnest Pass) has a very high incidence of MS patients.  I am adopted by my father.  I have a full sister and a half sister.  My full sister has 2 children by 2 different husbands and I have endometriosis and was unable to get pregnant so I have 2 adopted children.  (an assortment of children!!!!)  Because of this they are studing and will keep track of the 4 kids-17(neice), amost 16-son, 13-daughter, and 7 (nephew).  This make me feel good because if any should have problems, they will be checked. They will watch all 4 due to enviornment because all live here, they will watch neice and nephew due to family, and mine for environment. Needless to say they were very happy to have my family due to the members!  Always knew something good should come from our mixed up background!!!  Thats all for now.  Linda   eas…@canuck.com

Response:

At 07:56 PM 10/20/96 PDT, you wrote: >Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old

son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s older? SNIP Kenny,    The latest research suggests that it take a combination of several genes along with an outside trigger for MS to develope. The statistic I have seen quoted is a 2% chance of MS being passed along to one’s children. You can pass along some or all or none of the necessary genes, but it is not likely that they will all be passed on to your children. I am also the only one in my family to have MS. I am not too worried about my children getting it. I guess to me there are other things that they will face in their liftime that concern me more than the possibility of MS.                                         CL Spuhler                            _________________________                           |  ~    ^ ^               | Cheryl and Dana Spuhler   |  ~   ()()      /(       | spuh…@bright.net        |  ~  / /  |    /  (      | Beware of Dragons         |   ~00/ | |___/    (     |                           |    ^^  |           (    |                           |____________________(___|

Response:

At 08:54 PM 10/20/96, Kenny Howard wrote: >At 07:56 PM 10/20/96 PDT, you wrote: >if he will get MS when he’s older?  My neoro tells me that MS is not

directly genetic >but I noticed that a few guys in my home town that have MS that their daughters have it >also.  I am a little confused by the doctors telling me this cause it kinda looks like >it is inhereted but on the other hand no one in my family has MS in the past or >presenty but me. Hi Ken Found this research page on Genetics for you that was completed July 30/96 http://www.mssoc.ca/med9607b.html Hopefully it’ll make you and a lot of others rest more easily. ;~):-);~) Walt in Winnipeg, MB., Canada ————————————————————————— —         Crutch’s Corner http://www.cris.com/~Debwalt ————————————————————————— —             GRAPELINE <grapel…@evl.eecs.uic.edu> ————————————————————————— —      GrapeVine http://www.cris.com/~Debwalt/gsx/gsx.shtml ————————————————————————— —            Walt                 |          Nothing Left to lose   <debw…@concentric.net>      |         May the Force be with You Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada      |           Live Well and Prosper ————————————————————————— —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Easton wrote: > Paul/Joyce Eberl wrote: > > Kenny Howard wrote: > > > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old >  son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s > older? > > All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that >  there are > > cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of it >  being > > passed on is 1-2%. > >                                    Paul Eberl > > — > >              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY! > Hi.  I live in Alberta.  I go to the MS clinic in Calgary, Alberta. > They are studing herity and MS plus the area I was born and now live > (Crowsnest Pass) has a very high incidence of MS patients.  I am adopted > by my father.  I have a full sister and a half sister.  My full sister > has 2 children by 2 different husbands and I have endometriosis and was > unable to get pregnant so I have 2 adopted children.  (an assortment of > children!!!!)  Because of this they are studing and will keep track of > the 4 kids-17(neice), amost 16-son, 13-daughter, and 7 (nephew).  This > make me feel good because if any should have problems, they will be > checked. > They will watch all 4 due to enviornment because all live here, they > will watch neice and nephew due to family, and mine for environment. > Needless to say they were very happy to have my family due to the > members!  Always knew something good should come from our mixed up > background!!!  Thats all for now.  Linda   eas…@canuck.com

Hi…concerning hereditary questions you might want to check out this website:   http://pages.prodigy.com/XKHW53A/bottie2.htm

Response:

GTE/elliott wrote: > Sarah, > > my master’s project at umass dartmouth (massachusetts) in professional  writing > > has allowed me to learn the fineries of getting ideas across. > > part of the project is interviews w msers – there are 14 fairly short  questions, > > and i would love it if any msers would e-mail me for it. > Send it on, I would be more than happy to answer them! > JoAnn

I too would answer it.  Linda   eas…@canuck.com

Response:

hi everyone – i’ve been lurking for a couple monthes, partly because i’ve been real busy w graduate school and partly because i wanted to get a feel for the listserv. my master’s project at umass dartmouth (massachusetts) in professional writing has allowed me to learn the fineries of getting ideas across. part of the project is interviews w msers – there are 14 fairly short questions, and i would love it if any msers would e-mail me for it. i’ve ‘paid my dues’…i mean, i’ve had the lovely disease for 16 years. i use a cane and electric chair to go to school-work for a couple hours in the am-have been married to a supportive guy for eight years, but don’t have kids. i think i would have liked some, but it just hasn’t happened…                                                         best, sahree     x    x   x         //              Sarah J Moran   x        (xoxx.           P O Box 3352   xxxxxxxxxxxx              Westport, MA 02790  xxxxxxxxxxxxx   xxx xx   xx xx            AKA  xx   xx  xx   xx           sah…@ici.net, smo…@umassd.edu, smoran4…@aol.com

Response:

Yes Please send me a copy to fill out for you. I have had MS for 12 years.  I am no longer able to walk so use a Rascal to get around.  I am married to a very supportive guy also.  We just celibrated our 24th aniversary.  We have 3 children and 1 grandchild. A fellow MS’er Mary Ann On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:23:33 -0400 Sarah Moran <sah…@ICI.NET> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->hi everyone – i’ve been lurking for a couple monthes, partly because >i’ve >been real busy w graduate school and partly because i wanted to get a >feel >for the listserv. >my master’s project at umass dartmouth (massachusetts) in professional >writing >has allowed me to learn the fineries of getting ideas across. >part of the project is interviews w msers – there are 14 fairly short >questions, >and i would love it if any msers would e-mail me for it. >i’ve ‘paid my dues’…i mean, i’ve had the lovely disease for 16 >years. i >use a cane and electric chair to go to school-work for a couple hours >in the >am-have been married to a supportive guy for eight years, but don’t >have >kids. i think i would have liked some, but it just hasn’t happened… >                                                        best, sahree >    x >   x >  x         //              Sarah J Moran >  x        (xoxx.           P O Box 3352 >  xxxxxxxxxxxx              Westport, MA 02790 > xxxxxxxxxxxxx >  xxx xx   xx xx            AKA > xx   xx  xx   xx           sah…@ici.net, smo…@umassd.edu, >smoran4…@aol.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul/Joyce Eberl wrote: > Kenny Howard wrote: > > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old >  son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s older? > All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that >  there are > cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of it >  being > passed on is 1-2%. >                                    Paul Eberl > — >              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY!

Hi everyone,         I was diagnosed at age 40 and my mom traced our family tree back many generations.  No ms.  We sure do have alot to worry about but I don’t think passing along ms is one of them. Take care, donna

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Easton wrote: > Paul/Joyce Eberl wrote: > > Kenny Howard wrote: > > > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year old >  son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s > older? > > All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that >  there are > > cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of it >  being > > passed on is 1-2%. > >                                    Paul Eberl > > — > >              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY! > Hi.  I live in Alberta.  I go to the MS clinic in Calgary, Alberta. > They are studing herity and MS plus the area I was born and now live > (Crowsnest Pass) has a very high incidence of MS patients.  I am adopted > by my father.  I have a full sister and a half sister.  My full sister > has 2 children by 2 different husbands and I have endometriosis and was > unable to get pregnant so I have 2 adopted children.  (an assortment of > children!!!!)  Because of this they are studing and will keep track of > the 4 kids-17(neice), amost 16-son, 13-daughter, and 7 (nephew).  This > make me feel good because if any should have problems, they will be > checked. > They will watch all 4 due to enviornment because all live here, they > will watch neice and nephew due to family, and mine for environment. > Needless to say they were very happy to have my family due to the > members!  Always knew something good should come from our mixed up > background!!!  Thats all for now.  Linda   eas…@canuck.com

Hi…concerning hereditary questions you might want to check out this website:   http://pages.prodigy.com/XKHW53A/bobbie2.htm

Response:

Sarah, > my master’s project at umass dartmouth (massachusetts) in professional writing > has allowed me to learn the fineries of getting ideas across. > part of the project is interviews w msers – there are 14 fairly short  questions, > and i would love it if any msers would e-mail me for it.

Send it on, I would be more than happy to answer them! JoAnn

Response:

It has been proven that there is a genetic suseptibility that can be passed on.  Your children are at a slightly higher risk than the general population but nothing to be worried about.  Check in on the Genetic Suseptibitly studies that have recently come out.  My fathers sister had MS and now I have MS but it passed by her children and so far the rest of the extended families children.  Athough something I find interesting is that my fathers sisters daughter developed Crones disease.  I have been asked with different surveys the MS Clinic does whether there is any Crones disease in the family.  Is there a relationship there.  They are obviously trying to make one there for some reason. I have four young children so I sure hope this never happens to them, although I am confidend that by the time they grow up there will be a drug-diet regime that will halt or control the disease. Joan

Response:

In article <326CF003.5…@sk.sympatico.ca>, Gordon Ofstie <g.ofs…@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: >… that will halt or control the disease. > Joan

I’m even more hopeful. I want something–probably whatever a drug will be in the future–that will cure MS. Or even prevent it. There is something that cures Lyme disease if it is caught early enough. It has been, and I’m sure will continue to be, harder to develop from scratch the thing or things that is/are needed to cure MS, but I’m sure it will happen. Some day. Cathe             (Browman)

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Easton wrote: > Paul/Joyce Eberl wrote: > > Kenny Howard wrote: > > > Since I am no longer in denial about having having MS.  I have a 5 year

 old son that I wonder if it’s known if he will get MS when he’s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> older? > > All of the authorities state that MS is NOT hereditary, but acknowledge that  there are > > cases of occurances within families. I believe statistically the chances of  it being > > passed on is 1-2%. > >                                    Paul Eberl > > — > >              Your MIND is what and who you are, NOT your BODY! > Hi.  I live in Alberta.  I go to the MS clinic in Calgary, Alberta. > They are studing herity and MS plus the area I was born and now live > (Crowsnest Pass) has a very high incidence of MS patients.  I am adopted > by my father.  I have a full sister and a half sister.  My full sister > has 2 children by 2 different husbands and I have endometriosis and was > unable to get pregnant so I have 2 adopted children.  (an assortment of > children!!!!)  Because of this they are studing and will keep track of > the 4 kids-17(neice), amost 16-son, 13-daughter, and 7 (nephew).  This > make me feel good because if any should have problems, they will be > checked. > They will watch all 4 due to enviornment because all live here, they > will watch neice and nephew due to family, and mine for environment. > Needless to say they were very happy to have my family due to the > members!  Always knew something good should come from our mixed up > background!!!  Thats all for now.  Linda   eas…@canuck.comHi Paul

I was dx 9 years ago; my father had MS for 27 years, diagnosed when I was born; last year my brother diagnosed….what can I say.  Medical research now asserts that 20% of MSers are genetically tied.  The worst is dealing with the fear, comparing, …blah…blah…blah…Take care of you in any way you can. Buttercup in Northern Ontario

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I have heard acupunture can help us from a few people in the MS Newsgroup.  If  you have time would you mind telling me how it has benifeted you?   Thanks in  advance..

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Paul wrote…. . Now what about this accupuncture treat

-ment? I once checked into that and was told that it could not help MS – that acupuncture was only for pain – or is that why you are going that route?                                  Paul Eberl ********** Acupuncture has been of tremendous help to me. It is for much more than pain.  It is to get your system working in balance and with MS your system is out of balance.   Find someone who has been trained and hope you will notice a difference. K

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s_guziejka wrote: > I had another seizure, first in months, but feel most > strongly it was brought on by stress.  I AOK now. Ialso had my forst > accupunture tx yesterday, but can’t write anymore i have new friends picking > me up with their two young boys to take me to a fall foliage festival. Never > been to one. >         so if anyone wants to hear about my accupuncturewrite back and i’ll > tell more.

Sorry to hear about your seizure, Sue. Now what about this accupuncture treat -ment? I once checked into that and was told that it could not help MS – that accupuncture was only for pain – or is that why you are going that route? Hope you enjoy the fall folliage festival!                                  Paul Eberl

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        correct me if I’m wrong, but i thought i saw someone right on this list, that because they aren’t as bad as some they shouldn’t post here.         well my feelings on that are : doesn’t matter, post here, everyone from mild to severe needs a helping hand from time to time.  so whoever you are please make use of this.         new topic:  I had another seizure, first in months, but feel most strongly it was brought on by stress.  I AOK now. Ialso had my forst accupunture tx yesterday, but can’t write anymore i have new friends picking me up with their two young boys to take me to a fall foliage festival. Never been to one.         so if anyone wants to hear about my accupuncturewrite back and i’ll tell more.         and for those i haven’t yet thanked personally for there support, here it comes  THANK-YOU, THANK-YOU, AND thank-you.  you are all indeed special to me.         have a wonderful weekend.   Toodles,   Toodles????                __..–”“—….___   _…_    __         /// //_.-’    .-/";  `        “<._  “.”_ `.         luv and meow        ///_.-’ _..–.’_                        `( ) ) // //      susan       / (_..-’ // (< _     ;_..__               ; `’ / ///      / // // //  `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / //  Dreams are the touchstones of our characters.             Thoreau (1817-1862)

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Hi everyone, I’m rather new to this group, but have tried to read many of the posts before writing this.  My biggest fear with loosing weight (yet again) is regaining it.  Loosing it is hard, yes, but keeping it off seems to be nearly impossible. I’ve seen many sucess stories of people who are currently taking these medications (fen/phen and redux) but are there any/many people out there who have lost their weight and are now off the medication? If so, were you able to keep your weight down or were there problems? Or are these medications supposed to be "long term" (ie the rest of your life) instead of just an aid in loosing the weight? I’d really appreciate any post/email replies of any stories anyone might have to tell me about these medications – those on it and those who might have stopped taking it.  I’m supposed to start taking Redux in a month but am a bit leary of the side effects and the possibility that this might not be a long term weight loss.  Any pointers to web pages, FAQ’s etc would also be greatly appreciated. I just want to be better informed before I jump into a medication I don’t feel I understand. Thanks for your time and any help you might have for me Tracy Lunt — Graduate Student Dept of Chemical Engineering University of Virginia

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve done a lot of research on these medications including reading everything I could find on the web and obtaining a copy of Dr. Lamm’s book.  There seems to be, however, 2 differing opinions on these medications.  The first is that they are a lifetime drug – that treating the need to eat is like treating high blood pressure.  If you stop taking the drugs your b.p. goes right back up – or in this case your weight.  The second theory (the one which my own doctor seems to feel) is that you only use the drugs to loose the weight and while you are taking them you need to figure out how much you can eat and not gain weight with. Then with the "training" received while on the drugs you keep the weight off without medication on your own. I’ve also heard that the drugs tend to "stop working" after 3 months. Whether this means that you don’t loose much/any weight after 3 months on them, that the cravings come back and you could gain weight, or that the cravings are kept at bay and you "simply" (we all know how simple it is!) maintain your weight was unclear. Thanks again Tracy Lunt — Graduate Student Dept of Chemical Engineering University of Virginia

You’re asking some good questions, which I also asked before starting on the phen/fen plan.  (I’m down about 25 pounds in 6 weeks). With regard to the two schools of thought, I can’t say that I’m surprised by your doctor’s favored school.  The time when medicine’s rather limited scope could contribute much to advancing people’s health passed some time ago, but the physicians haven’t quite figured that out.  In the past, physicians identified and characterized diseases, developed treatments, formulated the drugs, and administered them.  Today, the epidemiologists identify the diseases, the molecular biologists figure out how they work, the pharmacologists figure out what medication might help, the chemical engineers manufacure the drugs, and the physician simply matches your stated symptoms to the recommended prescription guidelines given out by drug companies along with complimentary desk blotters. It’s a sad fact that most physicians are woefully undereducated regarding nutrition and the  complexity of the biological systems involved in nutrition, metabolism and brain chemistry. As I’m sure you know, being a chemist, the mechanisms which control weight are myriad, with variance designed in by evolution at each step of the metabolic pathway, and with no necessary relationship to the signals of satiety.  It is all well and good for your doctor to say that the purpose of the drugs is to let you learn how little you can eat and remain slim, but it’s also irrational to assume that simply knowing how little you can eat will give you the ability to go against your own brain chemistry forever after.   What demonstrates the irrationality of this idea, (and your doctor should certainly know better), is the fact that no diet regimen, no nutritional planning regimen, no non-drug diet regimen has *ever* been shown to be effective.  While doctors have gone their merry way, handing out sheets of mimeographed diets that only a Tibetan Monk could adhere to, they, more than anyone else have ample first-hand proof that diets don’t work, and that the traditional fatness paradigm, that "Fatness is simply a matter of willpower, and metabolism is the same for everyone" is not only a joke, but is a form of "blaming the victim" of a disease. I suspect that it’s simply too early to answer the questions about long-term use and effectiveness of phen/fen or dexfen, but that data will only be developed from experience.  Also, there are several other drugs in the drug company pipelines that might be used to pick up where phen/fen leaves off, if indeed it leaves off. (G-d forbid) Anyway, good luck with your investigation, and, should you decide to give them a try, the medication.

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Thank you for the emailed replies I’ve received.  In the past 2 days I’ve done a lot of research on these medications including reading everything I could find on the web and obtaining a copy of Dr. Lamm’s book.  There seems to be, however, 2 differing opinions on these medications.  The first is that they are a lifetime drug – that treating the need to eat is like treating high blood pressure.  If you stop taking the drugs your b.p. goes right back up – or in this case your weight.  The second theory (the one which my own doctor seems to feel) is that you only use the drugs to loose the weight and while you are taking them you need to figure out how much you can eat and not gain weight with. Then with the "training" received while on the drugs you keep the weight off without medication on your own. I’ve also heard that the drugs tend to "stop working" after 3 months. Whether this means that you don’t loose much/any weight after 3 months on them, that the cravings come back and you could gain weight, or that the cravings are kept at bay and you "simply" (we all know how simple it is!) maintain your weight was unclear. So I now pose further questions:  For those who have taken the medication for 3+ months what happened?  Do the meds still control the cravings and hunger over long periods of time?  How many people are continuing to take the medication AFTER reaching their goal weight in order to maintain it?  And how hard is it to find a doctor that will perscribe the medication as a "lifetime" aid rather than a temporary fix?  And, finally, are there success stories of people who have gone OFF the medication and maintained your weight? Thanks again Tracy Lunt — Graduate Student Dept of Chemical Engineering University of Virginia

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip I’ve also heard that the drugs tend to "stop working" after 3 months. Whether this means that you don’t loose much/any weight after 3 months on them, that the cravings come back and you could gain weight, or that the cravings are kept at bay and you "simply" (we all know how simple it is!) maintain your weight was unclear. So I now pose further questions:  For those who have taken the medication for 3+ months what happened?  Do the meds still control the cravings and hunger over long periods of time?  How many people are continuing to take the medication AFTER reaching their goal weight in order to maintain it?  And how hard is it to find a doctor that will perscribe the medication as a "lifetime" aid rather than a temporary fix?  And, finally, are there success stories of people who have gone OFF the medication and maintained your weight? Thanks again Tracy Lunt — Graduate Student Dept of Chemical Engineering University of Virginia <snip Tracy, I took phentermine & pondamin for the better part of a year and dropped 95 pounds. Backed off for 8 months and have now gained back 55 of those pounds. Started taking Redux yesterday and felt sick all day so I don’t know if I’ll try the Redux again or not. Just took a 30mg cap of phentermine an hour ago to see if I can handle the side effects that I have grown to hate. Wish me luck. BTW, this is my first day in this newsgroup and I am very pleased to have found it.  : )  Yippee !  : )  Maybe I’ll actually find some willpower through this group’s experiences ?   sighhhhhhh….hope so….<pout Terry  AKA Gossamer "http://www.starwarrior.com/gossamer" Tracy

To Tracy and Terry,      I’ve been on ionamin and pondimin for two and one half years.  It took me 8 months to lose 35 pounds.  After that, my weight stabilized, but I took the pills anyway – same dosage and before – one of each pill – one in the Am and one in the early PM.  This last year I’ve found my cravings return – and am more interested in food.  Control has had to come from inside.  Don’t start this rx without the knowledge that you will one day have to deal with the issues that encourage you to eat what your body ultimately turns into fat.  You’ve got to exercise, keep your portions small, have very little fat, make smart choices, and rechannel your habitual food center.  The pills are great and a tremendous help to get pounds off rapidly, and the more you deal with all those other demons, the more successful you’ll be in the long runn. All the best of luck.  This weight thing is a tough challenge.  But you’ve gotta wanna!. —    Joan Sherman and  /~~~/         /~/~   /~/                           < Babe    ^ ^      ^ ^  Courtney and                       * *   <                        Clapton                             Our wonderful rescues!

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<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also heard that the drugs tend to "stop working" after 3 months. Whether this means that you don’t loose much/any weight after 3 months on them, that the cravings come back and you could gain weight, or that the cravings are kept at bay and you "simply" (we all know how simple it is!) maintain your weight was unclear. So I now pose further questions:  For those who have taken the medication for 3+ months what happened?  Do the meds still control the cravings and hunger over long periods of time?  How many people are continuing to take the medication AFTER reaching their goal weight in order to maintain it?  And how hard is it to find a doctor that will perscribe the medication as a "lifetime" aid rather than a temporary fix?  And, finally, are there success stories of people who have gone OFF the medication and maintained your weight? Thanks again Tracy Lunt — Graduate Student Dept of Chemical Engineering University of Virginia

<snip Tracy, I took phentermine & pondamin for the better part of a year and dropped 95 pounds. Backed off for 8 months and have now gained back 55 of those pounds. Started taking Redux yesterday and felt sick all day so I don’t know if I’ll try the Redux again or not. Just took a 30mg cap of phentermine an hour ago to see if I can handle the side effects that I have grown to hate. Wish me luck. BTW, this is my first day in this newsgroup and I am very pleased to have found it.  : )  Yippee !  : )  Maybe I’ll actually find some willpower through this group’s experiences ?   sighhhhhhh….hope so….<pout Terry  AKA Gossamer "http://www.starwarrior.com/gossamer" Tracy

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Tracy, I have been on Phen/fen for a little over seven months now.  I have lost over 70 lbs.  My doctor and I believe in pulsing the meds if I need to.  I am in the process of slowly weaning myself off the meds.  I was on dosage of 60mg pondomin, and If i was to just stop taking this, there is a good chance of depression setting in.   All I need, I’m finally skinnny and then I’d be depressed.  Anyway, once I am completely off, I am going  to try my hardest to keep it off.  If I do gain some back, I will go on it only for a short time, until I lose the weight I gained back.  My doctor feels that this way I have a safety net.    

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Tracy, I have been on Phen/fen for a little over seven months now.  I have lost over 70 lbs.  My doctor and I believe in pulsing the meds if I need to.  I am in the process of slowly weaning myself off the meds.  I was on dosage of 60mg pondomin, and If i was to just stop taking this, there is a good chance of depression setting in.   All I need, I’m finally skinnny and then I’d be depressed.  Anyway, once I am completely off, I am going  to try my hardest to keep it off.  If I do gain some back, I will go on it only for a short time, until I lose the weight I gained back.  My doctor feels that this way I have a safety net.    

I have been on for four months and have lost 40 lbs.  I started on 37.5mg of phentermine daily.   Now I am down to 15mg of Ionamin (phentermine) every other day and have been for the last 6 weeks.  I am STILL losing 2-3 pounds a week and only need to lose about 7 more.  My doctor believes you should also wean yourself off of the meds in order for your metabolism to get used to "being on it’s own" (so to speak).  In two weeks I will take 15mg of Ionamin every three days for a month and then off.  I truly believe by then I will have no problem being "totally off".  The last few weeks I have started weight lifting (The Firm Videos) and it REALLY makes a difference.  Good Luck!! Jane

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I have been on phen/fen for 3 months and have lost 61# thus far.  Clothes that I hadn’t been able to wear in 10 years now fit loosely.  I have an old belt that I gave up wearing when I couldn’t fit buckle the last hole:  I have now cut 4 new holes, 1" apart, INSIDE the original set of holes so my pants don’t fall down. I’m happy.  My wife is happy.  And I have 100 pounds to go. — "Networks are God’s way of saying that you were getting too efficient and productive and must be punished."

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: I am very interested in this question of lont-term development of : tolerance to phen/fen. I am sure that we have all been through the diet : struggle only to regain every pound.   So many people in this group seem : to be newcomers.  Where are the oldtimers? Do they lose interest in what : is for them a solved problemn? I think it is clear that phen/fen works for : a moderately long time — say 9 months.   I am wondering if taking minimal : doses slows the development of tolerance.  Also, do drug holidays help? : If they do, we need to know how long a holiday is effective.  Myself I am : trying to back up the phen/fen with:  (1) exercise — exercycle 3 times a : week at 45 minutes  (2)  Eating breakfasts and stopping after dinner : snacking  (3)  Eating more fiber and less fat — the phen/fen seems to : help here by making these foods more palatable.   : Does anyone know of either anecdotal or experimental evidence for : enhancing long-term response to phen/fen? I think most of us have experienced plateaus while taking the meds. Dr. Lamm mentions going off the meds and "pulsing" your system with the drugs again to get it restarted. Seems to make some since if the dopamine and serotonin receptors get overworked and need to be revived for a period of time. My doctor even recommended going off for a while and then going on again. Anyone done this and noticed a difference? I’m concerned about gaining back 10 lbs. or so in the interim. —

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I am very interested in this question of lont-term development of tolerance to phen/fen. I am sure that we have all been through the diet struggle only to regain every pound.   So many people in this group seem to be newcomers.  Where are the oldtimers? Do they lose interest in what is for them a solved problemn? I think it is clear that phen/fen works for a moderately long time — say 9 months.   I am wondering if taking minimal doses slows the development of tolerance.  Also, do drug holidays help? If they do, we need to know how long a holiday is effective.  Myself I am trying to back up the phen/fen with:  (1) exercise — exercycle 3 times a week at 45 minutes  (2)  Eating breakfasts and stopping after dinner snacking  (3)  Eating more fiber and less fat — the phen/fen seems to help here by making these foods more palatable.   Does anyone know of either anecdotal or experimental evidence for enhancing long-term response to phen/fen?

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Here’s my experience and conjecture from my research: The meds reduce my appetite making it much easier for me to lose weight.   The meds gradually become less effective so I can’t count on managing my new weight only with medication.  After I stop taking the meds, my ravenous "cookie monster" appetite gradually comes back.  My body *does* want to go back to its former weight.  My only realistic chance of keeping just 25 lbs off is to continue to rev up my excercise, and to "pulse" the meds when I gain weight – but to try to stay off of them enough so that they work well when I need them. It may be easier for some people but its not for me.  I will always be a chunky person trying to keep up the masquerade as a size 8 or 10.  Just look at the rest of my family!   I know where I got it from. Its definitely worth the effort for me and I find it a joyful effort because I’m continuing the effort from the other side – the promised land – the land of pretty clothes and aerobics classes and feeling happy about my health and looks.   I’m happy about the excercise because I like it and I like that feeling of enjoying my body and what it can do. Guess what?  They took my measurements at the gym last month and they are still far from ideal.  32-27-38.  It OK with me to be a pear – as long as I’m a smaller pear.

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